Is Free Will Just a Cruel Illusion?

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This topic contains 7 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  etu 2 weeks, 4 days ago.

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  • #394

    JaneD
    Member

    I believe that there is much to learn about the faculty of free will from the way God conducted himself when his sovereignty was challenged in Eden.

    Free will is not some kind of cruel illusion, it is a precious gift. 
It has to have parameters or else it would encroach upon the free will of others. We see the results of that in the world today. A totally selfish expression of free will has resulted in humans depriving others of ‘sustenance and covering’ by keeping what they have to themselves and indulging in more material abundance than anyone ever needs in a lifetime.

    Many allow the poor to remain poor and disadvantaged instead of providing the means to help them…..not giving them “hand-outs” but giving them a “hand up”. 

Abuse of free will also results in aggressive people controlling the more complacent ones and crime and violence escalating to the point of robbing people of their possessions, their identity, their security and even their lives. Have we learned the lesson yet? Greed and selfishness are not good for anyone. 

I know that we sometimes have gluts of food in my country. To ensure that the economy remains unaffected, they destroy the food instead of giving it freely to those who are in need. (People who could never have afforded to buy it in the first place.)

    The world is in this mess because man is greedy and not one bit interested in the common good of all. We are all part of one family but we don’t treat each other that way. There is plenty of food for everyone, but politics, corporations and money always get in the way. We feel bad when we see images of starving children but what do we do about it? Usually not much. 

Angelic sons of God too, have free will, but they also possess great power. The rebellion in Eden was the result of one spirit son becoming discontent with his lot. He coveted something that belonged to God….worship. He influenced others to rebel as well, both in heaven and on earth. God has allowed things to be played out to their natural conclusion. He is basically allowing mankind to be caught in the act of being themselves. He has provided guidance by means of his word, his spirit and his human representatives, but he does not force people to worship him. He gives them choices. Those choices speak volumes to him as does the thinking that motivates them. 

God is allowing man to suffer a lot in order to retain this precious gift. If it were not worth the effort, why would he go to so much trouble to make it possible for us to retain it? Can we really be ‘made in God’s image’ without it? 

In one masterful plan, God takes something bad and makes the best of it. He gets to test out his entire family by allowing satan to rule for a time. (Luke 4:5, 6) 

God’s angelic sons are allowed to demonstrate whom they will obey, as are his human children. Every single one of us is demonstrating where we stand on all issues relating to God, his purpose, his laws and his sovereignty. By allowing all to choose which ‘God’ they will serve, Jehovah can see what is in the heart and judge accordingly. No one comes to his son without an invitation. (John 6:44) 

God’s angelic sons are split into two groups and so are his human children. The faithful, tried and tested…..and the unfaithful, also tried and tested but found wanting. Each has a destiny set in concrete; the judgments cannot be reversed. 



    In the Revelation, John tells us that all who fail to live up to their obligation to remain obedient to God will end up in the lake of fire, (Rev 20:15)…..the ‘second death’ will claim all who show a rebellious spirit like satan. The lake of fire is never destroyed. 

Due to the preservation of free will, man will always have the propensity to make wrong choices. Adam and Eve were perfect but still sinned. That is why there has to be rules and penalties.

    Precedents have been set during the entire period of man’s existence that will stand for all eternity. Never again will a rebel step out of line….they already know why God will not allow them to exist. No ‘ifs’ or ‘buts’. 

God could have destroyed the rebels in Eden and simply started again….but he didn’t. 



    A seed of doubt had been planted and God had been slandered by a malicious liar. The only thing that would have been accomplished by destroying the rebels was proving that God was more powerful, not that he is the rightful ruler of his intelligent creatures. Satan never challenged God’s power…..how could he? 
By allowing us to experience rulership by the devil in all its glory, (although it has been a painful exercise,) we have learned something about the way life is lived under his terms.

    Who feels that they are living the life they were meant to live? Who loves life in these troubled times? Not me! 

There are universal issues, fought on universal ground in universal time…it is not just about mortal man who has only in the last century, developed the ability to destroy this planet and himself along with it….it is also about beings who can wreak havoc in the whole universe. God’s purpose cannot be carried out until he gets us all back to square one by means of his kingdom. 



    Once he has tested all of his children, then and only then can he grant them everlasting life and get on with what he has planned for this vast universe. I don’t think this tiny speck called planet earth was ever going to be the end of his creative purpose…do you? 



    Perhaps we are just the beginning.

    “But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace” (Psalm 37:11)

    JaneD
    Avid Bible Student

  • #395

    etu
    Member

    It seems to me that the words “free will” has never been clearly understood and implicated. 

    The phrase “Freedom of Will” to me seems a better choice as it implies that One is free from the Will of another.

    

Their is a phrase in Hindu religion “The Dance of Maya” and it symbolizes that what we experience in life is usually not what we think it is. This has multiple levels of meaning, in the material universe it explains the Quantum structures of the universe and how our senses can only assimilate a fraction of the entirety. 

That said, the metaphorical scene in the Garden of Eden is that the Abrahamic god lied to Eve in saying that: 



    Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

    3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Here the Abrahamic god attempts to keep the ignorant Adam & Eve under His Will, the Serpent/Lucifer enlightens them that they will not die and that they too shall become gods. 
Freedom of Will means just that . . . freedom from the Will of another. 

Thy Will Be Done . . . becomes . . . My Will Be Done

    etu
    Magus III° Ordo Luciferi

  • #396

    JaneD
    Member

    Thank you for your response Etu. It begins with a false premise however.

    
The Creator, whom you call the Abrahamic God, does not lie…..in fact he “cannot” lie. (Titus 1:1, 2)

    

The “father of the lies” is the devil (meaning slanderer) (John 8:44)

    

God’s will is that his children obey him. If you are a parent, you will understand this concept. The Father always has his children’s best interests at heart. When he gives them directives, it is not because he wants to curb their freedom to make choices….he gave us that freedom to begin with. 



    Freedom to make choices would have enhanced their lives to no end, provided it was exercised within the parameters set by God. Abuse of free will means exercising it to the detriment of others. Once that occurs, your free will then becomes a curse instead of a blessing. The world today is proof positive that this is true. Selfish exercise of free will benefits no one.

    “But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace” (Psalm 37:11)

    – JaneD
    Avid Bible Student

  • #397

    JaneD
    Member

    etu wrote:

    It seems to me that the words “free will” has never been clearly understood and implicated.
    The phrase “Freedom of Will” to me seems a better choice as it implies that One is free from the Will of another.

    Their is a phrase in Hindu religion “The Dance of Maya” and it symbolizes that what we experience in life is usually not what we think it is. This has multiple levels of meaning, in the material universe it explains the Quantum structures of the universe and how our senses can only assimilate a fraction of the entirety.

    That said, the metaphorical scene in the Garden of Eden is that the Abrahamic god lied to Eve in saying that:

    Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

    3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    Here the Abrahamic god attempts to keep the ignorant Adam & Eve under His Will, the Serpent/Lucifer enlightens them that they will not die and that they too shall become gods. 
Freedom of Will means just that . . . freedom from the Will of another. 

Thy Will Be Done . . . becomes . . . My Will Be Done 

    Thank you for your response. It begins with a false premise however. 
The Creator, whom you call the Abrahamic God, does not lie…..in fact he “cannot” lie. (Titus 1:1, 2) 

The “father of the lie” is the devil (meaning slanderer) (John 8:44) 

God’s will is that his children obey him. If you are a parent, you will understand this concept. The Father always has his children’s best interests at heart. When he gives them directives, it is not because he wants to curb their freedom to make choices….he gave us that freedom to begin with. 

Freedom to make choices would have enhanced their lives to no end, provided it was exercised within the parameters set by God. Abuse of free will means exercising it to the detriment of others. Once that occurs, your free will then becomes a curse instead of a blessing. The world today is proof positive that this is true. Selfish exercise of free will benefits no one.
    “But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace” (Psalm 37:11)

    JaneD
    Avid Bible Student

  • #398

    etu
    Member

    JaneD wrote:

    etu wrote:

    It seems to me that the words “free will” has never been clearly understood and implicated.
    The phrase “Freedom of Will” to me seems a better choice as it implies that One is free from the Will of another.

    Their is a phrase in Hindu religion “The Dance of Maya” and it symbolizes that what we experience in life is usually not what we think it is. This has multiple levels of meaning, in the material universe it explains the Quantum structures of the universe and how our senses can only assimilate a fraction of the entirety.

    That said, the metaphorical scene in the Garden of Eden is that the Abrahamic god lied to Eve in saying that:

    Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

    3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    Here the Abrahamic god attempts to keep the ignorant Adam & Eve under His Will, the Serpent/Lucifer enlightens them that they will not die and that they too shall become gods. 
Freedom of Will means just that . . . freedom from the Will of another. 

Thy Will Be Done . . . becomes . . . My Will Be Done 

    Thank you for your response. It begins with a false premise however.
    The Creator, whom you call the Abrahamic God, does not lie…..in fact he “cannot” lie. (Titus 1:1, 2)

    The “father of the lie” is the devil (meaning slanderer) (John 8:44)
    Now, wouldn’t you suppose this book might be just “slightly” biased in its opinion? LOL 


    God’s will is that his children obey him. If you are a parent, you will understand this concept. The Father always has his children’s best interests at heart. When he gives them directives, it is not because he wants to curb their freedom to make choices….he gave us that freedom to begin with.
    Indeed I am a parent, and “obey” is not what I want them to do, I want them to think for themselves, question even me. 


    Freedom to make choices would have enhanced their lives to no end, provided it was exercised within the parameters set by God. Abuse of free will means exercising it to the detriment of others. Once that occurs, your free will then becomes a curse instead of a blessing. The world today is proof positive that this is true. Selfish exercise of free will benefits no one.

    Freedom of Will “within set limitations”? LOL isn’t that just a bit of irony if not hypocrisy? Freedom of Will means just that . . . freedom of your will to become manifest without another’s interference.

    etu
    Magus III° Ordo Luciferi

  • #399

    etu
    Member

    I don’t believe it is possible to be Free of Will while practicing any Right Hand Path religion, you cannot worship a deity and not be absolved into it and influenced, therefore your Will is restricted. 

I’m not quite certain the Father of Lies is the Abrahamic devil . . . it seems to me that would be the actual Abrahamic god who does the majority of fibbing in the Testaments.

    etu
    Magus III° Ordo Luciferi

  • #547

    JaneD
    Member

    etu wrote:

    “Now, wouldn’t you suppose this book might be just “slightly” biased in its opinion? LOL”

    Yes, and I would imagine that your own bias is responsible for your view as well. 

We are all biased towards our own belief system and that which supports it. So….???? 



    Indeed I am a parent, and “obey” is not what I want them to do, I want them to think for themselves, question even me.

    You are not God…..are you? 

Our Creator also wants us to think for ourselves. But he does not want us to elevate ourselves above all others, including him. We must defer to his superior wisdom and intellect. Unless of course you believe yourself to be his equal? 



    Freedom of Will “within set limitations”? LOL isn’t that just a bit of irony if not hypocrisy? Freedom of Will means just that . . . freedom of your will to become manifest without another’s interference.

    Parents must set limits for their children or they become undisciplined brats. It is reasonable for God to set limits for his children. Those limits are always for our good and his correction leads to our being educated in the right behavior. 



    I’m not quite certain the Father of Lies is the Abrahamic devil . . . it seems to me that would be the actual Abrahamic god who does the majority of fibbing in the Testaments.

    By all means share how the God of the Bible has been untruthful…..?

    “But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace” (Psalm 37:11)

    JaneD
    Avid Bible Student

  • #548

    etu
    Member

    etu wrote:

    Now, wouldn’t you suppose this book might be just “slightly” biased in its opinion? LOL
    Janed Replied: Yes, and I would imagine that your own bias is responsible for your view as well. 

We are all biased towards our own belief system and that which supports it. So….????

    Good point, but what I am saying is that it is not relevant prove a point using a book created for propaganda. Scholarly evidencing comes from outside sources that actually do confirm the texts. 



    Indeed I am a parent, and “obey” is not what I want them to do, I want them to think for themselves, question even me.
    You are not God…..are you?

    God? There is no god, it’s make-believe. But as a Luciferian I seek apotheosis. 



    Our Creator also wants us to think for ourselves. But he does not want us to elevate ourselves above all others, including him. We must defer to his superior wisdom and intellect. Unless of course you believe yourself to be his equal?

    And here lies the contradiction, you cannot preach freedom while setting limitations of your own choosing. I have no proof of his existence and certainly no understanding of his “superior wisdom and intellect”. We are all greater than his sum, because this god (as do all archetypal structures) was created by Mankind. 



    Freedom of Will “within set limitations”? LOL isn’t that just a bit of irony if not hypocrisy? Freedom of Will means just that . . . freedom of your will to become manifest without another’s interference.
    Parents must set limits for their children or they become undisciplined brats. It is reasonable for God to set limits for his children. Those limits are always for our good and his correction leads to our being educated in the right behavior.

    Nah . . . not true. Right & wrong are subjective ideas and are not the domain of religiosity, Mankind does not need a superimposed belief system in order to know what is right & wrong. 



    I’m not quite certain the Father of Lies is the Abrahamic devil . . . it seems to me that would be the actual Abrahamic god who does the majority of fibbing in the Testaments.
    By all means share how the God of the Bible has been untruthful…..? 


    Oh my . . . where do I start?

    etu
    Magus III° Ordo Luciferi

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